Inviting discourse

Well, i had an intersting chat with kael the other night, and i thought there are some pretty good ideas here. Hope y'all sift through it, and i'm hoping for at least a few comments and reactions to the discourse...



Carl Javier: tanong tungkol sa pagsusulat. ayos lang, busy ka?
mikael co: deyn naman shot
mikael co: shoot
Carl Javier: ok, so, medyo may mga shit akong naiisip recently about writing, example
Carl Javier: naisip ko, minsan dami kong excuses hindi magsulat
Carl Javier: tapos nagisip ako, what could cause it
Carl Javier: tapos kunwari, performance anxiety
Carl Javier: like sa sex
Carl Javier: na hindi ok yung gawa mo
mikael co: o go on
Carl Javier: so idea ako na connect ko ang lack of writing to sexual dysfunctions
Carl Javier: tapos yung isa, yung idea lang na punong puno ako ng narrative
Carl Javier: naisip ko lang kasi kanina nanunood ako ng olats na pelikula
Carl Javier: naghahanap ako ng narrative threads
mikael co: o
Carl Javier: tapos naisip ko, parang medyo napapabayaan ko na ang buhay ko
Carl Javier: at kwento ng buhay ko
Carl Javier: dahil engrossed ako sa mga ibang narratives, nalimutan ko na ang overall thrust ng sariling narrative
mikael co: o
Carl Javier: so yun, medyo writing oriented tong topics and dilemmas na gusto kong isulat
Carl Javier: tapos ang iniisip ko, at eto na ang tanong
Carl Javier: meron ako dating thing na, don't write about writing, kasi ang yabang ng dating
mikael co: o
mikael co: o
Carl Javier: so, mayabang nga ba masyado?
mikael co: hmm.
mikael co: ganito, sa tingin ko lang, a:
mikael co: kung sabihin kong malaki ang titi ko, mayabang ba?
Carl Javier: sige,
mikael co: minsan, oo. minsan, hindi.
mikael co: depende sa pagkakasabi.
mikael co: there are ways of writing about writing
mikael co: na hindi arogante ang dating.
Carl Javier: ok
mikael co: so you want to write a narrative, a story about writing, ganun ba?
mikael co: tapos what's keeping you is that pakiramdam mo, mayabang ang dating nu'n?
Carl Javier: oo, pero writing about not being able to write
mikael co: hmm.
Carl Javier: kasi yung issues ko about writing fiction
mikael co: how about, write it as non-fiction?
Carl Javier: yeah. iniisip ko kasi, medyo threshold point sa akin to
Carl Javier: having to establish a career as something else and decide how to continue the creative writing career
Carl Javier: kasi nga ang issue minsan, that i worry about, bakit ka nagsusulat tungkol sa pagsusulat? anong karapatan mo?
mikael co: hmm. i get that all the time too.
mikael co: i totally understand.
mikael co: pero hmm.
mikael co: i'm trying to articulate how i approach it...
mikael co: i guess, hmm,
Carl Javier: i mean, kaartehan lang ba? kasi nga eto ang project na interesting, pero eto ang worries to it
mikael co: no way around it. bok.
mikael co: i mean,
mikael co: if you feel compelled to write something,
mikael co: even if it would sound arrogant, or self-aggrandizing, and maybe at times even stupid,
mikael co: you have to get over that fact. embrace all those apprehensions,
mikael co: and tell yourself, to hell with this.
Carl Javier: work them in?
mikael co: in a way, yeah,
mikael co: that'd be a way to approach it,
mikael co: work them in, in a tongue-in-cheek manner,
mikael co: or overdo it, para magtunog na sarcastic at self-reflexive
mikael co: so in the end, it'd have a self-deprecating tone.
mikael co: but still, pag binasa siya, depsite of that,
mikael co: may mapupulot ang reader.
mikael co: mas okey ang ganun, rather than sound
Carl Javier: yeah. hmm, sa bagay, mas mahirap na project, mas malaking potential for something to happen
mikael co: pretentious, or trying to affect a fals modesty or something.
mikael co: interested ka recently sa science, right?
mikael co: have a look see:
Carl Javier: yeah
mikael co: http://poetrymagic.co.uk/literary-theory/the-new-science.html
mikael co: mas buo:
mikael co: http://www.textetc.com/theory/the-new-science.html

mikael co: mas okey yung 2nd
Carl Javier: hmm, baka makatulong sa akin to. gumagawa ako ngayon ng paper about schiller, and science, and drives, yung nasa blog ko ba
mikael co: saw it, yeah
mikael co: schiller...
mikael co: old german dude, dead, ka-bathc ni heidegger?
mikael co: o si scheller ba yun?
mikael co: i think you have to read scheller too, if you're reading science.
mikael co: i mean,
mikael co: read *about* scheller, max scheller,
mikael co: kasi medyo mahirap siyang intindihin. haha.
mikael co: pero--
Carl Javier: ah, friedrich von schiller ang gimik ko e
mikael co: ah
mikael co: well, si scheller di scientist
mikael co: he was championing the idea
mikael co: na ang science is just another rationality in a vast multiplicity of rationalities,
mikael co: and that
mikael co: i dunno
Carl Javier: thanks dude, makakatulong yung article sa paper ko
mikael co: parang siya ang "god" metanarrative
mikael co: ng traditional times.
Carl Javier: yun nga lang, kung multiple rationalities, well, pwede rin.
mikael co: parang science took the place of god.
mikael co: isang araw let's talk about this.'
Carl Javier: hmm. oo nga. ang galing kasi nakikita ko maraming overlaps ng science and literature
Carl Javier: recent, lecture ako about zombies and shit
mikael co: like?
Carl Javier: tapos napagusapan, how do you define the undead
Carl Javier: sabi ko, one of the primary definitions of the undead is something that cannot procreate
Carl Javier: so unnatural ang means ng pagpaparami niya
mikael co: o nga no.
Carl Javier: say, zombies bite
Carl Javier: and vampires turn people
Carl Javier: tapos sa evolutionary biology
Carl Javier: pag-baog ka, you are considered genetically dead
Carl Javier: so medyo wasak yun
Carl Javier: if you cannot procreate, if you cannot pass on your genes, you are already considered, in a way, dead, scientifically
Carl Javier: tapos may new scientist who are turning to hume and his epistemological theories as a starting point for new studies in neuroscience
mikael co: o nga.
mikael co: ah.
Carl Javier: e yun. tapos we see writers like david foster wallace starting to write science books
Carl Javier: so ang ganda ng overlaps para, sobrang exciting. wala lang. yun
mikael co: oo oo.
Carl Javier: sobrang salamat dun sa link. magagamit ko sa paper
mikael co: oo oo. ako rin gagamitin ko 'to.
Carl Javier: swak yun
mikael co: may incomplete pa ako sa crisis of contemporary reason, e.
Carl Javier: ginagawa ko pinapasadahan ko yung science books uli para ma-identify yugn parts
mikael co: nice
Carl Javier: shit. na-eexcite uli ako magsulat
Carl Javier: feeling ko medyo olats yung nangyari dun sa script ko for khavn
mikael co: check out mo yung buong site, ang galing din dude
mikael co: http://poetrymagic.co.uk
Carl Javier: but it lit a fire up my ass
mikael co: bakit?
mikael co: okey nga, e!
Carl Javier: so may mga iba akong gustong gawin na shit
Carl Javier: o?
mikael co: ah
mikael co: i mean, okey yung script for khavn.
Carl Javier: eto, dude, may gimik ako naisip for cha
mikael co: o
Carl Javier: gagawa kami ng album, title niya romantic comedy soundtrack
Carl Javier: so yun
Carl Javier: kasi may mga instrumentals siya na maganda
mikael co: okay
Carl Javier: tapos fill in with other stuff
mikael co: you mean, the two of you lang
Carl Javier: gusto mo mag-contribute?
mikael co: di ko gets
mikael co: kanta?
Carl Javier: yeah
mikael co: tula?
Carl Javier: song lyrics
mikael co: ako? i don't write songs, dude. never written them.
Carl Javier: well, that's ht eplan
Carl Javier: ako rin dude
Carl Javier: i've never written a song, or not one worth playing anyway
mikael co: me too
Carl Javier: pero the situation calls for songs
Carl Javier: i mean, she needs them
Carl Javier: so nagisip na lang ako ng structure that i could work with
Carl Javier: na ok ang love songs
Carl Javier: tapos invite some friends to contribute lyrics too
Carl Javier: yun
mikael co: ah
Carl Javier: nakakaisip ako ng projects, thanks dun sa sinulat ko for khavn. if anything, yun ang tulong nun
Carl Javier: kaw ba nag-translate nung script?
mikael co: yep
mikael co: wanna see my translation?
Carl Javier: sige. nakwento ba ni khavn sa yo?
Carl Javier: sinulat ko initially in filipino?
mikael co: eyng?!
mikael co: di nga....?
Carl Javier: tapos sabi niya, english na lang, hahaha
mikael co: tapos, what happened?
mikael co: ahahaha
Carl Javier: yun, sinulat ko na lang in english kasi naramdaman ni khavn na hindi ko masabi ang gusto ko
mikael co: a okey
mikael co: so paano ka ba inapproach ni khavn dito? binayaran ka ba?
mikael co: alam mo, umabot na sa puntong nahihiya yata akong magpabayad kay khavn.
Carl Javier: nakikinig ako ngayon ng new album ni kanye west, off topic. wasak dude, may umiikot sa steely dan riff and vocal melody
Carl Javier: ibang klase tong animal na to
Carl Javier: walang bayad
Carl Javier: alala mo painom mo?
Carl Javier: sabi niya collaborate kami. sabi ko oo
Carl Javier: set kami meeting sunday
mikael co: ah
Carl Javier: kita kami sunday afternoon, akala ko naman exploratory shit lang
Carl Javier: kasi usually ganun, usap usap, bato ideas. after a few meetings like that, saka pa lang gawa ng script
Carl Javier: after namin magusap, tinanong niya bigla, anong oras ko mabibigay yung script
Carl Javier: wasak
mikael co: hahaha
mikael co: ako tinawagan ako tuesday.
mikael co: sabi niya kailangan wednesday night translation,
Carl Javier: yung ano pare, yung nagkita tayo sa ateneo
Carl Javier: dapat meeting yun
mikael co: sabi ko di kaya. gimme till thursday 6am
mikael co: a okey
mikael co: eto pala nagnyari--
Carl Javier: sabi lang, inglesin ko na lang, tapos sabi mas wasak
Carl Javier: tapos send sa yo
Carl Javier: o sige
mikael co: kasi i've been translating a lot of poetry recently, kaya akala ko mahirap magtranslate ng iba-- yung attention sa line cuts, language, etc.
mikael co: e di ba medyo mahaba ang script mo
mikael co: anyway, i thought it'd take me the whole night to get it done
Carl Javier: ok
mikael co: pero pag-upo ko, pare, ang natural ng flow ng sentences mo, kaya ang daling i-translate. and of course, may license naman ako kay khavn
mikael co: na magbago at magdagdag at agbawas, what i saw fit
mikael co: pero wala naman akong ginalaw sa substance niya,
mikael co: dire-diretsong translate lang
mikael co: so i got it done in under an hour.
Carl Javier: pare wasak nga ang mga nabago mong lines. yun yung hinahanap ko na hindi ko nalagay
Carl Javier: actually, madali ko lang din nasulat
Carl Javier: first draft mga three hours
Carl Javier: tapos one hour of revision
Carl Javier: madali ngang isulat
Carl Javier: ok nga ba? i mean, ako natatakot ako lagi sa gawa ko
mikael co: oo pare
mikael co: par natuwa ako galing
Carl Javier: nahihiya ako humirit kay khavn kung ok e
mikael co: tangina ba't ba tayo kailangan pang dumaan kay khavn, e kaya naman nating mag-isip nito...
mikael co: kung magsulat kaya tayo ng sariling mga screenplays?
Carl Javier: oo nga e
Carl Javier: actually, pare, kahapon nagaaral kami sa class ng romantics
Carl Javier: preface to the lyrical ballas
Carl Javier: ballads
mikael co: o
Carl Javier: tapos so wordsworth, will take the natural and defamiliarize it
Carl Javier: and coleridge will take the supernatural and make it natural
Carl Javier: so meron 2 corresponding, complementary tracks of poetry
Carl Javier: naisip ko, gusto ko rin ng ganung project
mikael co: not really well-versed sa kanila, pero go on
Carl Javier: naisip ko, either ikaw o si adam
Carl Javier: well for example si wordsworth
mikael co: o
Carl Javier: kukuha siya ng simpleng bagay, tapos he will elevate it so that it is magical
Carl Javier: on the other side, so coleridge kukuha siya ng magical or supernatural thing, and he will write it as if it were part of our lives, or told something of the ordinary life
Carl Javier: so they attack poetry from two opposite directions, but they are complemetary
mikael co: ah
Carl Javier: nagiisip ako, astig ngang project yan, contemporary na ganyan, but instead of the natural/supernatural, siguro meron naman tayong ibang pwede tulaan na makabagong dichotomy
mikael co: hmm, resistant ako sa ganyan, pero the way yuo put it, parang workable
mikael co: i mean, galit ako sa dichotomies, e
mikael co: hahaha
Carl Javier: kasi outlines lang siya pare
Carl Javier: the idea of wordsworth and coleridge is that they saw the poetry as a whole, organic things
Carl Javier: thing
Carl Javier: pero para mapakita ang pwedeng gawin ng tula
Carl Javier: they showed the extremes, the two poles that you could come from in creating it
Carl Javier: so, hindi siya two opposing things na dichotomy
Carl Javier: but rather they saw a whole thing
mikael co: off topic for a while...
mikael co: "Nor can we get outside language to some purer mode of understanding. No doubt words mirror objects imperfectly, but it is on their multiple reflecting surfaces that truth become visible."

Carl Javier: and decided, how can we divide this among ourselves
mikael co: from http://poetrymagic.co.uk/literary-theory/hermeneutics.html
Carl Javier: hmmm
mikael co: sorry ha, multitasking ako, and that line just struck me sorry hhaa
Carl Javier: shit, diyan pumapasok ang bagong neural mapping
Carl Javier: galing ng line
Carl Javier: image of multiple reflecting surfaces. wasak
mikael co: heto ang buo:
mikael co: "And whereas Habermas sees language as a sedimented ideology, full of undisclosed corruptions and prejudices that analysis must bring to light, Gadamer finds these corruptions and prejudices as constitutive of understanding. There is no language free of them. Nor can we get outside language to some purer mode of understanding. No doubt words mirror objects imperfectly, but it is on their multiple reflecting surfaces that truth become visible."

mikael co: hahaha read up on gadamer and habermas na lang bok, hehe
mikael co: sorry
Carl Javier: wasak.
Carl Javier: yun nga lang hindi ganyan ang approach namin ngayon e
Carl Javier: mas epistemology shit kami e
mikael co: okay
mikael co: this is hermeneutics
Carl Javier: pero wasak yan a
mikael co: not so different
mikael co: epistemology, the nature of knowlege, parang ganun, no?
Carl Javier: yeah ang alam ko sa semiotics how the symbols becomes and changes
Carl Javier: parang ganun
Carl Javier: epistemology, yung how we perceive
Carl Javier: sa epistemology, subject ang mahalaga
Carl Javier: it is how we perceive the thing that defines it
mikael co: ah
Carl Javier: ganito, parang yung may tiningnan tayong dalawa
Carl Javier: you will see it in one way, say blue
mikael co: gets ko
Carl Javier: you are not sure that i perceive it in the same way as blue
mikael co: o
Carl Javier: pero nagkakaroon lang ng universality because there are certain things that are immutable
Carl Javier: for example, sugar
mikael co: hmm
Carl Javier: no matter how i perceive sugar
Carl Javier: we will always agree that sugar is sweet
mikael co: hmm...
Carl Javier: based on that premise, there can be certain universal aesthetic and moral tenets
Carl Javier: kay kant naman, ang subjective universality
Carl Javier: kumbaga, it is something you do because you believe it is something that should be enacted as law
mikael co: ah kabisado ko si kant.
mikael co: i know,
Carl Javier: for example, di ba i will not lie
Carl Javier: oks
mikael co: three formulations ng categorical imperative, etc.
mikael co: pero...
Carl Javier: yup, mismo
mikael co: universality, well, problematic talaga para sa akin.
Carl Javier: so ang ginawa ni coleridge, kinuha sina kant, tapos inapply sa english poetry and philosophies
mikael co: hmm.
Carl Javier: oo, mahirap ang universality sa post-modern age lalo na
Carl Javier: pero astig pa rin siyang isipin
Carl Javier: at pagisipan
mikael co: yeah
Carl Javier: ok tong translation a
mikael co: ikaw rin yan, e, haha
mikael co: dynamic equivalence hinanap ko, at kasi sabi ni khavn, dagdagn ko ng mura, haha
Carl Javier: oo nga. sarap nga e.
mikael co: hehe
Carl Javier: labo nga ng instructions for revisions
mikael co: pare nakita mo blog ko?
Carl Javier: "basta, wasakin mo pa. gawin mong wasak na wasak"
mikael co: HAHAHAHAHA
mikael co:
Carl Javier: di ko pa na check lately
mikael co: sa blog ko pala,
mikael co: tinry ko itranslate isang poem ni zagajewski
mikael co: it was about poland,
mikael co: pero ang galing pare,
mikael co: kasi while i was reading it,
mikael co: i was imagining poland,
Carl Javier: hmmm ok yan a
mikael co: and zagajewski just hit me, may sentiment talaga na parang binabalot ng tinik ang dibdib ko,
mikael co: at sa transaltion, i tried to live that sentiment,
mikael co: tried to create it, from my own experiences, my own images of pilipinas
mikael co: so nagbago ang images, pero ang form, ang syntax ng tula, pibnilit kong iretain
Carl Javier: hmmm, galing ng idea na yan for translation
mikael co: ang lumabas, ayun. not sure if it was a good translation, pero it felt damn good.
Carl Javier: teka, before i go over it, naisip ko lang ang dati kong gawain
Carl Javier: before i would write, i would retype the whole first page of either araby or something by hemingway
Carl Javier: to channel that
mikael co: o
mikael co: nice!
mikael co: in a sense, everything is a translation of something
Carl Javier: and sabi nila, to go further into that kind of mindset, try to find handwriting samples and emulate the handwriting
mikael co: wow
Carl Javier: because handwriting is a manifestation of certain neural patterns, and if you write the same way as someone, you can channel that person's neural patterns
mikael co: a bit... too scientific (universalisitc?) for my tastes, but i see what you mean
Carl Javier: kumbaga pare, when you translate, you are not taking, you are literally trying to form a brain synapse that connects your brain patterns to another's
mikael co: i get that
mikael co: o nga
mikael co: pero to reduce emotion to brain patterns, well.
mikael co: i guess that's one way of perceiving things, haha
Carl Javier: well, we can't be the same, but we can emulate. galing din kasi ng concept ng brain patterns
Carl Javier: kasi for a while, when they started neural mapping, people were afraid that by taking brain scans you could "read minds"
Carl Javier: but the fact is each person's neural pattern is unique, like fingerprints or DNA
Carl Javier: so these are different because we each have different emotions
Carl Javier: feelings
Carl Javier: experiences to draw on
mikael co: mismo
Carl Javier: levels of sympathy and empathy
Carl Javier: galing lang
Carl Javier: kasi nga, with new technology, we come to understand these things
mikael co: infinite ang human experience, malawak ang uniberso
Carl Javier: but we come to further understand the mysteries of the depths of human emotion
Carl Javier: shit, parang magandang ilagay yun sa paper a
mikael co: have you read socrates, apologia?
Carl Javier: apologia? parts, yung nasa readings namin
mikael co: well yun.
mikael co: kasi, ang main thesis nun, parang,
mikael co: ang tao nagiging tao lang kapag inamin niya na may limitations siya, na masyadong malawak ang uniberso para alamin ng isang tuldok, tulad natin.
mikael co: i guess the attitude na "i know only that i don't know," yung humility, yun ang essential to learning, essential to being a human.
mikael co: being.
Carl Javier: parang the wise man knows that he is ignorant
mikael co: being a human being. haha.
mikael co: yeah, siya ang nagsabi nun.
Carl Javier: yup
mikael co: pero siya rin ang nagsabi na
mikael co: "ang buhay na hindi sinasaliksik ay hindi buhay-tao."
Carl Javier: kasi nga, ang wasak, when you read the scientists, you realize that the more you learn, the more you need to learn
Carl Javier: An unexamined life ba yun?
mikael co: mismo
Carl Javier: wasak, off topic, duet pare kanye west and chris martin
mikael co: pero, about the scientists kasi, a lot of them purport to have found the answer to everything, or to be seeking it-- the answer to evything
mikael co: sino si chris martin?
mikael co: wrestler?
mikael co: hahaha
Carl Javier: wazak! vocalist ng coldplay dude
Carl Javier: wala e
mikael co: ah oo asawa ni gwyneth!
Carl Javier: actually, in the late 20th century the physicists thought they were approaching a unifying theory
Carl Javier: pero kung mahanap man ng physics yun, kulang pa rin daw yun to explain other things
Carl Javier: and it only opens up more questions
mikael co: i know!
Carl Javier: wazak talaga no?
mikael co: and, and...
Carl Javier: well, medyo olats na string theory
mikael co: kungmay sagot ba, kaya nating i-encase yun in a language we'd understand?
mikael co: the way i see it, ganito:
Carl Javier: and the concept of the multiverses is looking to not be something to rely on at all
mikael co: if ever someone met god, and asked for the answer to everything, then god would, like, touch him on the forehead or something. then all of these expereinces would come rushing, everything, light and matter and energy, parang dadaan sa katawan niya. tapos sasabihin ni god, "o ayan ang sagot." pero di masasabi nung taong yun sa ibang tao ang sagot,
Carl Javier: pwede
mikael co: kasi the answers would have to be in terms of a concrete human experience. or experiences.
mikael co: that is, if god existed at all.
Carl Javier: hindi sapat ang numbers and abstact computations of these things
mikael co: hindi maipapasa sa kapwa ang experience, e di yun mai-reretell. that's one of the attractions of art, i think,mimesis, the retelling of experience,
mikael co: pero even then, art always come short, kasi no language can ever duplicate the experience itself.
Carl Javier: yeah, but then it's the art experience where the person experiencing interacts and engages the text that brings the text to life in a new way
mikael co: so if ever there were "the answer," it can't be retold. di kaya ng language, kasi language, always, is limited. fractured.
mikael co: mismo, mismo sa sinabi mo.
Carl Javier: the whole idea isn't merely the creation of the art, but also the interaction with the art, kung paano nabubuhay ang art dahil sa bagong nag-experience sa kanya
mikael co: so art, then, i think, isn't the retelling of an answer to life's questions. di siya moral lesson shit. isa siyang recreation.
mikael co: i mean, re-creation.
Carl Javier: i mean, we bring shakespeare to life every time we read him
Carl Javier: lahat sila, binubuhay natin
Carl Javier: pero ang pagbuhay, sa paradigm natin
mikael co: "may naramdaman ako, hindi ko masabi kung ano yun, pero heto, isa pang pakiramdam. baka pareho." yun ang approach, i think. may certain humility, and an admission of the fractured nature of language.
Carl Javier: parang si sandman di ba pag nagpakita siya, the one who sees him fills in certain gaps
mikael co: mismo
Carl Javier: and it's in these gaps that we find new creations
Carl Javier: hmmm, naisip ko dude, with some minor editing, pwede ko ba publish to sa blog ko?
mikael co: oo ba
Carl Javier: i was watching a bruce springsteen DVD of his new album, yung we shall overcome the pete seeger sessions
Carl Javier: and he was talking about recording songs that were, some of them, more than 100 years old
mikael co: pero wag mo tanggalin ang mga off topic shit like chris martin and kanye west, a!
mikael co: yun yun, e!
Carl Javier: and he said that the whole thing is about understanding and recontextualizing
mikael co: intersting case:
mikael co: (off topic)
mikael co: http://www.netsdaily.com/blog/?p=385
mikael co: mismo!
Carl Javier: which is why, by rerecording songs written, some of them in the 1800s, he manages to make a commentary on contemporary life and times
mikael co: galing talaga ni boss, haha
Carl Javier: oo dude, wasak na wasak
Carl Javier: tangina dude, oden out for the season?
mikael co: ngayon mo lang nalaman?!
mikael co: haha
mikael co: oo dude
mikael co: wasak nga e
Carl Javier: kanina lang ako nakacheck ng shit
Carl Javier: wala e. wasak na wasak ang buhay ko
Carl Javier: may balita ka ba about the shoot?
mikael co: alaws, e
mikael co: text mo si khavn baka gising pa yun